Neverside

Just too plain for my taste. This is Neverside, formerly Tutorial Forums and I'm thinking maybe we've lost sight of that somehow. Another overhaul is in store for that before anyone here accepts it. If I wasn't so busy with architecture, I'd actually finish the all 5 of my backup layouts and throw some concepts at you. I'll look forward to see some changes to this and will be waiting for the entire thing to pop up.

Brandon/Kidd

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Neverside - In Development. Expected Release: Unknown.
Tortustudios.com - In Development. Expected Release: Summer 2006.( You can visit it now)

It's not bad. Really simple. I like what you've added since Down left the layout. But still, It is really really simple looking.

Not bad.. just too simple for my liking.

Anyways, at least things are moving along. Nice to hear from you again dave!

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It's said EE-SAW-MOO


I'll speak slowly if your on something, and faster if your not.

That's cool, I am totally open to suggestions and constructive criticism. Lay it on me, my friends!

Brandon - when you have a moment, can you send me some links that give the vibe/feel that you personally have in mind? My personal tastes in design have been steadily migrating more towards web 2.0/clean/simple/space... with less bling I agree this layout (so far) is quite simple (though of course it's not yet finished at all... I only posted it in this state since a progress update was requested, and since it's been a long time I agreed it was a good plan haha). That and of course I'd like everyone's feedback early on in the process.

As with the current NS format, I plan on adding a sidebar (possibly hidable, as it is currently). I'd like to use the sidebar for actually useful links and stuff though hehe

Anyhow, looking forward to more comments from everyone.

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-- Dave
Neverside Admin

absolutecross.com

I like the one you did so far, fits my taste, except what about showing studio entries (or is that just the forum page you're showing) and the content area does look a bit bland; maybe adding some info under each section (how it is now) would give it a more community feel instead of a company feel. Oh and the white in the content area kind of sicks out, hurts the eys IMO, how about something a little bit darker say E2E2E2 or F2F2F2 then just compensating for everything else inside.

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People without self-doubt scare me.
The world is my country, science is my religion. - Christiaan Huygens
“Don’t take refuge in the false security of consensus.”

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Hey Tool - yeah this is just showing the forum in this view. I think the studio layout sample I have in this PSD is the same as what's shown in Down's news post about the design:
http://neverside.com/news/53/

It's definitely bright white, and I'll experiment with some light grays. So far as the forum category titles, yes, there will be a line of description text below each of them.

I'm contemplating whether to make the design semi-fluid (i.e. stretches out a bit for those who have the extra screen real estate to give them a little extra breathing room and not appear like a thin container in the center of the screen)... it would have a min and max width though, since I hate it when forums get toooo wide, and the text stretches all the way across the screen (on my large monitors... heh especially with how popular widescreen is getting). What do you guys think? Yes, no?

I re-read Down's news post from a few months ago where he showcased this design. For the most part people seemed to like it then... I'm wondering what has changed your opinions? Admittedly it was a different page he showed (the Studio profile page, which has a good bit of color in it) so maybe that has something to do with it.

Oh also.... I know some people do like the current design of NS, and as best I know, this version will still be available as an option (I'll just need to check with Scott whether a style changing setting is available). I can't promise that I'll be able to take the time to fix the various bugs in this layout at that point (mostly IE issues with the CSS) though if anyone wants to submit fixes, I'll be happy to integrate them in - though I will happily fill in that mysterious hole in the header that nobody knows what it's for haha. It's been suggested that we stick with this layout as default and just complete it..... but to be honest, I'm not personally feelin' it, and (to me) it doesn't portray the attitude and vibe that I want NS to give. So I'll be working on this new one, and hopefully with the ideas and advice from you guys, we can get it juuuuust right

Anyhow, keep them comments comin'.... I kin take it!!

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-- Dave
Neverside Admin

absolutecross.com

I like the large text and the tan background...

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irc.efnet.net #neverside
Neverside merchandise!

I like the main design but the forums look disorganized, I think we need the table structure.

I'd say it's a good idea to make the fonts smaller, but I think you made them too small. Something a bit larger would be nice, both for the sake of readability and for visual goodyness.

The gray background is kinda mean too, it maybe works when you see it together with the header or the footer, but when you scroll down, and just have the content area visible, it's just white with black text, and gray borders, and that looks incredibly boring. Compare it to the original layout. Maybe you could try some other color, or lighten up the original beige instead?

Originally posted by SimpleRules:

I like the main design but the forums look disorganized, I think we need the table structure.

No way! It looks so clean and organized without the "standard table structure." It doesn't load you with too much information at one time. A very unique way of doing it if you ask me. I wish more forums would do it that way.

Originally posted by AbsoluteCross:

I'm contemplating whether to make the design semi-fluid (i.e. stretches out a bit for those who have the extra screen real estate to give them a little extra breathing room and not appear like a thin container in the center of the screen)... it would have a min and max width though, since I hate it when forums get toooo wide, and the text stretches all the way across the screen (on my large monitors... heh especially with how popular widescreen is getting). What do you guys think? Yes, no?

No. After a certain point, the more text per line, the harder it is to read - it's a known fact. Granted, that's why you would use max-width. But remember IE users don't have max-width support yet, even with the release of IE7 Beta. Fluid layouts just aren't my style anyways. But most users still have 17" monitors and are using 1024x768 now (800x600 is going bye, bye), and I predict it will probably stay this way for quite some time considering many people simply don't "want" a bigger monitor (though I sure wouldn't mind, hehe), and thus won't likely choose a higher resolution.

I'd love to get my hands on that PSD because I see a bunch of things I would improve on big time, yet still keeping the intended "style." (I'm very picky about color schemes and crisp, clean designs). But regardless it's lookin' good, keep up the effort.

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Hehe, when I looked at the screenshot I realized that two of the "latest threads" were ones I started. "A bug Report" and "Flock... Cool but not cool." I must be special.

I like the tan version a lot better.

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Quote:

I'm also going to go with a bit smaller font-size for the category names and links and such, partly since every person I've demoed the sample to has said basically, "dude what's up with the huge fonts?!" haha

Random people saying the fonts are too big as an incentive to change them to contradict the original purpose of the new redesign is foolish. With this direction, Neverside will continue to be mediocre from a functional standpoint. By simply emulating every other site's consistently too small fonts and most likely other features this site is just another with no value for someone who hadn't already been involved in the community when it was Tutorial Forums.

Copying deviantART isn't enough to interest people. You need to do something different, and that never happened outside of Neversidian. Neversidian was actually a good idea ruined by poor execution. A year later and there is still no direction, nothing special. Maybe I'm wrong, and there is actually something behind this. I'll believe it when I see it.

Not that I'm a big fan of CSS hacks (even to get the evil browser to play nice hehe), though what do you think of this?
http://www.svendtofte.com/code/max_width_in_ie/ (found link on the Stylegala CSS Hacks page).

Maybe alternately I can do something with CSS sliding doors or something like that, so that the site is built ideally for 1024x768 viewers, though can slide down to a min-width point that makes it compatible for 800x600. The image elements (header graphic) could set the width for 1024x768, but be able to "slide out of view" to a point if the window gets smaller. I dunno, just throwing the idea out. I agree on not giving it a "ton" of flexability that could allow line lengths to get too long, but just trying to think how I can make it a bit more 1024x768 friendly and still give an option to 800x600 people (which though they are diminishing, are still around under 10%). NS also has a lot of 1280x1024 users as well (including myself), about 25%... and it gets looking pretty "skinny" for them.

Heri (or some of you other trusted fellas who've been with NS for a while), I'd be happy to send you the PSD to try some things on if you'd like. I'll PM or email you Heri.... anyone else, PM me if you want to try your hand on the PSD

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-- Dave
Neverside Admin

absolutecross.com

Rad, the font size in the preview is quite a rough estimate. I couldn't play with the size to any satisfactory degree for the point of grabbing a screenshot to bring into Photoshop, other than by using the +- text size controls in Firefox. I picked a size 2 steps down from what it was by default. Once I'm working in the CSS, I'll have full control and will tune the font size more carefully, and yes, it will be at least a bit bigger than that. The essence is I felt that the original size was "too" big, and brought it down so I could see things more in perspective.

Also, it was never our intent to copy Deviantart. The color scheme similarities in the current layout were not my choice, and if I had been more involved at the time I would have had more to say about it (that and the layout was first shown to me pretty much complete, and I didn't want to put down the hard work that had gone into it and was generously volunteered). So far as the profile/gallery aspect of the site.... that's not meant either to "copy" Deviantart. It's just a feature we wanted on our community.

I really don't know what the plans and big vision for Neverside were back then. I was among those originally brainstorming the ideas in the very beginning... but things got away from me and it became more of an extensive development project that I couldn't take part in for the most part since I'm honestly not a programmer.

All that's in the past now, and while those dreams might resurface sometime in the future, it is my single driving goal right now to revive the community itself. The first and most prominent step I can personally take in that direction is to complete this redesign. To be honest, that's all there is right now - the development team is pretty much gone for now, busy with other things in their lives. In my mind, the development of our whole custom-programmed grand idea was a good dream, but might not be feasible for now. What that means, I'm not sure - it could mean a new campaign to gain new developers, or, if it is what is going to be best for the community of Neverside, it could mean putting those other things aside until they are mature, and stepping back into tried and true vBulletin or some other solution. While that might be frustrating or feel like taking a step back, I will do it if it is a first positive step to getting back on track. That has not been decided yet, and I've started a discussion today with the staff to explore these options.

Peace and keep the feedback coming guys!

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-- Dave
Neverside Admin

absolutecross.com

Some observations: don't like the reduced font size, but you've already commented on that. One of the ideas we had when redoing the design was usability, including large (though not screen-hogging) clickable surfaces.

I can see your immediate reaction to the tan color, but Neverside's current unsaturated colors on a dark grey background are depressing. We all seemed to like it in the beginning, but the excitement has worn off and we're beginning to see something past the hype (and that is something we should consider for the new design). That's why I like the bright background color; it makes everything else come alive, and in some ways it may have helped the text to stand out. (P.S. thank Aeon for all his hard work. I'm sure he's proud of it, and I know I am too, but time marches on.)

But I do like the continued use of a simple layout rather than an interfaced one. I think interfaced layouts still have a place on the Internet, but communities are about content first and foremost.

More opinions when I don't have to use a laptop. I hate working on these things. The keyboards are all screwed up when you're not used to them, and I miss my trackball.

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I'm happy to see things moving again. I wish I had the time to contribute still, but I simply dont.

I guess I'll give some reasoning for my design choices with the redesign. Before I do, though I want to say that I am happy people have opinions on how things should look. The feedback is certainly appreciated. Fresh eyes see things that myself and the other developers havent. I know I've looked at this design a lot.

Anyway, as far as the simplicity of the design, that was completely intentional. I think it is important that the content be the focus, especially for the forums where there is a lot of text and definitely for the studio where the main focus is the sumbissions. I really dont want the design to be intrusive at all, and I feel like a lot of classic forum deisgns are way to intrusive, and distract from the content.

I dont think there is any need to "show off" with a really intense design for the site. If anything, I think it would make Neverside look less professional. As far as the font sizing goes, I agree that they were probably kind of large, but that was just intended for the forum index. In the Water Cooler, for example, the fonts for thread names would have been smaller.

Basically, my primary goal with the redesign was to remove everything but what was truly necessary, and do so in a clean, light, roomy design.

I certainly wont take offense to any changes that are made in the design, but just know that everything in the design was intentional, from the colors, the fonts, the layout, etc. Nothing was just put there without a lot of thought, and consideration of alternatives.

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Hello. I am Joe Shoop's Portfolio

Why waste your time changing the design? This one is cool and the site doesn't need a redesign yet. Maybe get all the other promised features online before wasting hours and hours on a design that is simpler. Also if server costs are a lot, add some ads for f*ck sake. This site has so many users it could make profit from ads and employ someone to code as a job.
For this site to succeed I think you guys need to develop some form of business plan/model. Stop looking at the site as a bit of fun or part time job and look to developing it and making money.

No one in their right mind would close a highly used forum and promise a new site, release the site and start implementing features only to stop and change the design. Pointless and not needed.

Deviantart makes a lot of money from ads so it can run many servers and pay wages. Neverside should be doing this!

Deviantart probably kicked off like neverside but Deviantart made it to the finish line. I find it strange how so many professional web developers cannot get together and release a steady stream of updates. If anyone ain't got time, leave, dont do nothing for 2months then decide your too busy.

I also find it strange how every month I remember about neverside and come to check out the updates (most of the time I see nothing updated) I see 100+ users online. These users need to be used to generate a flow of income to fund the site.

I know someone who might code this site for $3000. Job done